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 Address: forearm/elbow presets View next topic
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Mark G
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Joined: 30 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sat 14:47, 10 Jul 2010 Back to top

Hi Dariusz

In looking at trying to improve my backswing I have recently focused on my pivot as per your instruction, with good results so far. From there I have re-visited the role of my arms – something that has confused me for some time. In doing so, I went back and re-read your article on the arms specifically with a view to try to automate the motion as much as possible.

As you outline, the role of the right arm is to fold into the backswing – therefore a weak right hand grip makes sense to assist this, as well as rotating the right forearm/elbow into a clockwise position at address so that the back of the elbow joint points to the right pants pocket.

You also mention to experiment somewhat with the lead arm and so I would be interested to hear what you think of the following thoughts….

During the backswing, I am wanting to have the lead arm in line with the shoulders at the top - parallel to the plane at address (as per the One plane swing), which means the shaft has to rotate 90 degrees open.

So it follows, firstly, that if you preset the left arm at address, with the forearm/elbow turned clockwise (so that the point of the elbow is pointing somewhat toward the target) the forearm will only have another 90 degrees to be able to rotate and the elbow very little if any. So with this preset, the motion of rotating the forearm will find it natural limit at the desired amount, meaning you don’t have to worry about positions (or getting out of position) as such – it will automatically perform the correction motion, because you can’t rotate any further.

Secondly, presetting the forearm/elbow clockwise at address means you can build some tension as the very fact you are holding the club square will act as a natural governor. Starting the backswing will release this governor and somewhat automatically start the rotation into the backswing, which will find its natural limit due to the preset. I hope that makes sense.

On forearm rotation Jim Hardy, who I believe you are familiar with, mentions ‘checkpoint one’ of the backswing: that is, the club shaft is parallel to the ground, and perpendicular to the target line, with the hands over the middle of the feet. This position assumes no forearm rotation. From there you rotate the forearms to the top. I understand this, but I have always found it difficult: that is to not rotate at first, then to all of a sudden rotate to the top. When contemplating why you cannot rotate from the start, the thinking – as I understand it – is to minmise excessive rolling in order to stop the club from becoming too open and to the inside, and to prevent disconnection from the chest.

Do you think that by presetting the left and right forearms/elbows as per the above, that this concern is alleviated? Meaning it is possible to start forearm rotation earlier in the backswing? ‘Checkpoint one’ as a result will have the hands above the toes rather than the insteps, but without the potential problems as the right elbow will have folded back nicely, and the club will be on plane.

Anyway, in trying this with my backswing the early results seem quite promising…it looks quite good, is easier to perform, and the quality seems more consistent.

I would be very pleased to hear your thoughts.

Thanks again

Mark
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dariusz
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Joined: 15 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Sat 22:39, 10 Jul 2010 Back to top

Mark - it is a great and very wise post. My comments in bold below:

Mark G wrote:
Hi Dariusz

In looking at trying to improve my backswing I have recently focused on my pivot as per your instruction, with good results so far. From there I have re-visited the role of my arms – something that has confused me for some time. In doing so, I went back and re-read your article on the arms specifically with a view to try to automate the motion as much as possible.
As you outline, the role of the right arm is to fold into the backswing – therefore a weak right hand grip makes sense to assist this, as well as rotating the right forearm/elbow into a clockwise position at address so that the back of the elbow joint points to the right pants pocket.

Yes. The weakish RH on top cooperates fully with the rear elbow preset. It both directs the takeaway on plane (unables to perform it too inside/outside) as well as makes it impossible to move the elbow too much away from the body. The joint stays down.


You also mention to experiment somewhat with the lead arm and so I would be interested to hear what you think of the following thoughts….
During the backswing, I am wanting to have the lead arm in line with the shoulders at the top - parallel to the plane at address (as per the One plane swing), which means the shaft has to rotate 90 degrees open.

Yes.


So it follows, firstly, that if you preset the left arm at address, with the forearm/elbow turned clockwise (so that the point of the elbow is pointing somewhat toward the target) the forearm will only have another 90 degrees to be able to rotate and the elbow very little if any. So with this preset, the motion of rotating the forearm will find it natural limit at the desired amount, meaning you don’t have to worry about positions (or getting out of position) as such – it will automatically perform the correction motion, because you can’t rotate any further.

Yes ! The more the elbow joint can rotate more (its ROM is bigger) when the arm is straight and one can preset the joint when the arm is slightly bent. When approaching top when the lead arm straightens it is already controlled by the folding rear arm.


Secondly, presetting the forearm/elbow clockwise at address means you can build some tension as the very fact you are holding the club square will act as a natural governor. Starting the backswing will release this governor and somewhat automatically start the rotation into the backswing, which will find its natural limit due to the preset. I hope that makes sense.

It surely does.


On forearm rotation Jim Hardy, who I believe you are familiar with, mentions ‘checkpoint one’ of the backswing: that is, the club shaft is parallel to the ground, and perpendicular to the target line, with the hands over the middle of the feet. This position assumes no forearm rotation. From there you rotate the forearms to the top. I understand this, but I have always found it difficult: that is to not rotate at first, then to all of a sudden rotate to the top. When contemplating why you cannot rotate from the start, the thinking – as I understand it – is to minmise excessive rolling in order to stop the club from becoming too open and to the inside, and to prevent disconnection from the chest.

Well, IMO one should never ever monitor things that just have to happen thanks to biophysics. That's why we try to set everything correctly at address so that the motion is free of conscious thoughts. The lead arm pronation has to happen because the rear elbow joint cannot move in all direction; the same rear elbow joint set the natural limitation. One should not worry about such things.


Do you think that by presetting the left and right forearms/elbows as per the above, that this concern is alleviated? Meaning it is possible to start forearm rotation earlier in the backswing? ‘Checkpoint one’ as a result will have the hands above the toes rather than the insteps, but without the potential problems as the right elbow will have folded back nicely, and the club will be on plane.

Mark, the elbow joints presets (in line with the Bio-K grip) somehow "freeze" the movement of the both forearm bones until the inertia makes the elbow joints "unfreeze". It is exactly happening when the kinetic energy chain goes down to the clubhead and the rear arm straigtens. Then the forearms swivel can ultimately happen but in the late follow-through. Therefore, the dreaded crossover release is much easier to avoid. The forearms rotate only in the impact zone as much as the swing arc requires. This was what Hogan wanted.

Anyway, in trying this with my backswing the early results seem quite promising…it looks quite good, is easier to perform, and the quality seems more consistent.

I would be very pleased to hear your thoughts.

Thanks again

Mark


I am happy to hear that the results are promising. Even if only a small bit of automatism is being introduced (and I believe it is not so very small one) it is worth doing it. Engage conscious mind at setup and then let it happen with repeating good results.

Cheers
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