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Mark G
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PostPosted: Fri 4:06, 02 Jul 2010 Back to top

Hi Dariusz and everybody

Firstly I'd like to say thank you for the work you have provided through this website. I have been working on the One plane swing, and feel, much of the information on the site not only complements it but also extends it in it's own right. Well done, and thanks.

In terms of the grip, I found your article fascinating and it also supported a few things I had somewhat felt intuitively. Specifically, the weaker right hand grip helps in the backswing, especially with rotating the club face open to the top. Matching this against a stronger left hand grip makes sense as you detail. The other point is in relation to the right pinky finger. I have always 'wedged' my right pinky finger somewhat like Mr. Hogan, but to hook it around and in definitely blends the hand together even more. Is it okay to hook the pinky finger around and in, to the point it is wedged in and touching the grip itself?

Also in making some of these adjustments, I almost feel that a smaller grip diameter may be a good idea, as well as a grip texture that is less inclined to slip. Generally, speaking what do your recommend in this regard?

Best regards

Mark
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Fri 23:34, 02 Jul 2010 Back to top

Mark G wrote:
Hi Dariusz and everybody

Firstly I'd like to say thank you for the work you have provided through this website. I have been working on the One plane swing, and feel, much of the information on the site not only complements it but also extends it in it's own right. Well done, and thanks.

In terms of the grip, I found your article fascinating and it also supported a few things I had somewhat felt intuitively. Specifically, the weaker right hand grip helps in the backswing, especially with rotating the club face open to the top. Matching this against a stronger left hand grip makes sense as you detail. The other point is in relation to the right pinky finger. I have always 'wedged' my right pinky finger somewhat like Mr. Hogan, but to hook it around and in definitely blends the hand together even more. Is it okay to hook the pinky finger around and in, to the point it is wedged in and touching the grip itself?

Also in making some of these adjustments, I almost feel that a smaller grip diameter may be a good idea, as well as a grip texture that is less inclined to slip. Generally, speaking what do your recommend in this regard?

Best regards

Mark


Hello Mark and welcome to the forum.

First, I'd like to thank you warmly for all kind words from you.

Secondly, the quote of yours in bold letters is the essence of the bio-k grip and express its main idea very well.

Last but not least - each finger consists of three parts that can bend 90 degrees to each other forming a "|_|" shape. It's because each of our fingers has three joints. As you correctly stated, hooking the pnky around the LH index finger joint is the most safe and most natural way of matching both hands when using the Vardon grip. Mr.Hogan showed us a similar, albeit less extreme, way in his book.
I see nothng wrong in touching the grip with the end of your pinky because there is always a gap between index finger and the rest of fingers in a correct grip (also LH grip). If your pinky is wrapped securely and long enough - why not.

I must tell you that the grip is so secure and natural (without tightening the hands) that I have abandoned to use a glove. I have also discovered that less tapered grips feel much better. One can do it by adjusting the number of adhesive tape layers under the grip. Now, since it is easier to "thicken" the lower part of the grip than to "thin" the upper - yes, smaller diameter grips suit me better, exactly as you mentioned.

Cheers
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Mark G
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PostPosted: Sat 2:26, 03 Jul 2010 Back to top

Thanks for your reply Dariusz, and for the clarification. I don't mean to impose too much on you, but I was hoping I could follow up with some finer details...I have been thinking of changing my grips.

It's interesting that you mention your grip is so secure that you no longer need to wear a glove. A few days ago I had started playing around with the grip following some of your instructions. I hadn't yet incorporated more of a hook with the pinky finger, and had felt the grip slip a little, especially with opening and closing the club face. I then made the adjustment, and I practiced throughout the day yesterday, not hitting balls, but taking many a swing inside on video. Afterwards I commented to myself that I found it a little odd that I hadn't once felt I should have put my grip on, when normally I would have. I didn't think much more about it until I read your post....very interesting.

In relation to a smaller grip diameter, many clubmakers tend to say it is best to err to a slightly larger diameter grip due to being able to relax a little more when holding the club. It would seem to me, however, that being able to relax is a function of a secure grip, which can be achieved by hooking the pinky finger as per your instructions. Also, I find that the more I try to strengthen/weaken my left/right hands the larger the grip feels, and my fingers become less relaxed, so I feel I need to reduce the diameter (??). The other point is that I remember reading a comment from Mr. Hogan. I just looked it up (Five lessons p.33) and he begins by saying: the golf grip is bound to function most effectively when the hands and fingers feel thin. Is there something in this: generally, is a thinner grip is desirable? Please correct me if I'm off track.

You also mention a less tapered grip and so a smaller diameter grip. I'm curious about the top part of your grip and your left hand. Do you have the upper part of the grip smaller to the point that the palm presses into the fingers, or do you still keep the conventional finger tips just touching the palm? If I may ask, and I realise it's dependent upon personal preference and hand size, but to give me a starting point, I was wondering how many layers of tape you apply to the top and bottom part of your grips and what glove size you wear?

With grip texture, originally I had the Golf pride Tour velvets. Then during a period when I was hitting quite a few balls, my hands were getting sore, and I changed to the Players softie. Recently, in trying to develop my swing, and having my speed and transition increase I had been thinking of changing to the new Tour velvet BCT cord. I like the feel of them too. I had thought of doing this to minimise slip, but that is less of an issue now with exaggerating the hook on the pinky finger. Although there is some amount of personal preference, do you recommend or have a preference with textures - in particular for developing a One-plane Hogan like swing?

My apologies for the length!

Thanks, Mark
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Sat 11:13, 03 Jul 2010 Back to top

Mark, my comments in bold letters below:

Mark G wrote:
It's interesting that you mention your grip is so secure that you no longer need to wear a glove. A few days ago I had started playing around with the grip following some of your instructions. I hadn't yet incorporated more of a hook with the pinky finger, and had felt the grip slip a little, especially with opening and closing the club face. I then made the adjustment, and I practiced throughout the day yesterday, not hitting balls, but taking many a swing inside on video. Afterwards I commented to myself that I found it a little odd that I hadn't once felt I should have put my grip on, when normally I would have. I didn't think much more about it until I read your post....very interesting.

It's because hands/wrists do what they are expeted to do, nothing more. Both hands are in natural postion in relation to each other (ca. at 90*) when a man bends down. Both wrists are supposed to work in unisono, without disturbing each other. In a golf swing, the lead one is supposed to deviate (cock) while the rear one to flex (hinge). Conventional golf instruction already know for ages that what lead and rear hands should do; however, it still prefer to speak about "parallel V's" instead thinking in biokinetical terms.
Say, when hammering nails keeping a heavy hammer using both hands - both wrists are supposed to deviate - thus, the hammer grip would requre keeping the palms parallel to each other.



In relation to a smaller grip diameter, many clubmakers tend to say it is best to err to a slightly larger diameter grip due to being able to relax a little more when holding the club. It would seem to me, however, that being able to relax is a function of a secure grip, which can be achieved by hooking the pinky finger as per your instructions. Also, I find that the more I try to strengthen/weaken my left/right hands the larger the grip feels, and my fingers become less relaxed, so I feel I need to reduce the diameter (??).

It is like you describe because the closer the angle between both palms is to 90* the room for gripping the club tightens. Unfortunately, it is not possible to hold 90* or more since our palms/fingers should be "constructed" a bit differently. Just imagine how big diameter grip you are able to grasp with parallel palms and how not very comfortable is to hold a small diameter that way (!). This is why clubmakers and instructors prefer to err to a larger diameters in a conventional grip type.
BTW, if you look at Hogan's hands - they are very big - and compare to his grips that do not look much oversized on pics. They do not look tapered almost at all !



The other point is that I remember reading a comment from Mr. Hogan. I just looked it up (Five lessons p.33) and he begins by saying: the golf grip is bound to function most effectively when the hands and fingers feel thin. Is there something in this: generally, is a thinner grip is desirable? Please correct me if I'm off track.

I am afraid the notion "feeling thin" refers to actual state of fingers/hands and not in relation to the size of his grips. IMO, when Mr.Hogan said "thin" he meant they were not puffy. Hence he recomended to drink a famous ginger ale.


You also mention a less tapered grip and so a smaller diameter grip. I'm curious about the top part of your grip and your left hand. Do you have the upper part of the grip smaller to the point that the palm presses into the fingers, or do you still keep the conventional finger tips just touching the palm? If I may ask, and I realise it's dependent upon personal preference and hand size, but to give me a starting point, I was wondering how many layers of tape you apply to the top and bottom part of your grips and what glove size you wear?

The upper part of my grips are conventional standard sized grips with one layer of tape under. Then, I asked my clubmaker to add proportinally more layers of tape when going down the grip so that the taper can be reduced. My fingertips touches the palm but never press it. Nevertheless, the upper diameter must be small enough to create a secure leverage by the meaty pad easily. I figured that the very upper part (say, last one-two centimeters) usually is unproportionally larger - thus, I learn to grip the club slightly lower than before with my lead hand leaving the thick end out of play.


With grip texture, originally I had the Golf pride Tour velvets. Then during a period when I was hitting quite a few balls, my hands were getting sore, and I changed to the Players softie. Recently, in trying to develop my swing, and having my speed and transition increase I had been thinking of changing to the new Tour velvet BCT cord. I like the feel of them too. I had thought of doing this to minimise slip, but that is less of an issue now with exaggerating the hook on the pinky finger. Although there is some amount of personal preference, do you recommend or have a preference with textures - in particular for developing a One-plane Hogan like swing?

No, I think the texture should depend on a personal preference. I have been using Lamkin Torsion Control Tour for 3 years (had secured a stock of them for myself) and they were/are equally good for me with (before) or without (now) glove.

Thanks, Mark


Cheers
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Mark G
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PostPosted: Mon 2:41, 05 Jul 2010 Back to top

Dariusz,

Thanks for taking the time to address the different parts of my post. Your answers were very helpful and much appreciated. Over the weekend I read your complete work cover to cover so to speak. If I may, I might add a few posts to your forum later, but I wanted to complement you on the quaility of your insights and say that it has got me very excited about the possibilities.

Thanks Mark
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Mon 20:57, 05 Jul 2010 Back to top

Mark G wrote:
Dariusz,

Thanks for taking the time to address the different parts of my post. Your answers were very helpful and much appreciated. Over the weekend I read your complete work cover to cover so to speak. If I may, I might add a few posts to your forum later, but I wanted to complement you on the quaility of your insights and say that it has got me very excited about the possibilities.

Thanks Mark


Mark, be my guest Cool Please do not hesitate to start the discussion even on the very details. Ultimately, we all are here to learn.

Thank you again for kind words.

Cheers
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Mark G
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PostPosted: Tue 3:38, 06 Jul 2010 Back to top

Dariusz

I certainly wouldn't want to take advantage of your generosity, but as I get the feeling you are passionate about the subject, I might just take you up on that!

Thanks, Mark
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braveheart
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PostPosted: Tue 3:40, 31 Aug 2010 Back to top

My first time here, hello everybody.
I had to join to report that the the Biokinetical Grip works wonders for me! I was having problems with my right hand always slipping off the left thumb ( I have large thumbs and thenar eminences but short fingers) resulting in a lot of inconsistency. I always heard use a stronger grip and moved the left over to show more knuckles and the right palm moved accordingly. A friend suggested I use a "weaker right hand" and after doing a search and finding out about your thoughts on the grip I committed to using it, all I can say is "WOW". I am striking my irons solid with a slight draw but it allows me not to think of much else but hang on and finish. Hands stay together better. Compression, distance, accuracy all improved.

Only think I would like to discuss or give as feedback is that my right ring and middle fingers do feel a little stiff and sore after playing. Getting used to the grip but is it is normal to feel uncomfortable and tight right now? Will that go away as I get used to it? I use standard size golf pride new decade grips and wear a cadet large glove, pinkies 2 3/8" long. I have experimented with midsize grips but always found the butt end to be too large. It seems like thinner grips would make it easier with short fingers to get the right hand on top of the left much easier. Do you advocate less tapered grips with the BioK grip? Or is it something that you have to experiment on your own?

Thanks again for basing the grip on sound anatomy and physics. I will continue to use it and continue to give feedback. Take care.

Mike


Last edited by braveheart on Tue 3:52, 31 Aug 2010; edited 3 times in total
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Tue 10:27, 31 Aug 2010 Back to top

braveheart wrote:
My first time here, hello everybody.
I had to join to report that the the Biokinetical Grip works wonders for me! I was having problems with my right hand always slipping off the left thumb ( I have large thumbs and thenar eminences but short fingers) resulting in a lot of inconsistency. I always heard use a stronger grip and moved the left over to show more knuckles and the right palm moved accordingly. A friend suggested I use a "weaker right hand" and after doing a search and finding out about your thoughts on the grip I committed to using it, all I can say is "WOW". I am striking my irons solid with a slight draw but it allows me not to think of much else but hang on and finish. Hands stay together better. Compression, distance, accuracy all improved.

Only think I would like to discuss or give as feedback is that my right ring and middle fingers do feel a little stiff and sore after playing. Getting used to the grip but is it is normal to feel uncomfortable and tight right now? Will that go away as I get used to it? I use standard size golf pride new decade grips and wear a cadet large glove, pinkies 2 3/8" long. I have experimented with midsize grips but always found the butt end to be too large. It seems like thinner grips would make it easier with short fingers to get the right hand on top of the left much easier. Do you advocate less tapered grips with the BioK grip? Or is it something that you have to experiment on your own?

Thanks again for basing the grip on sound anatomy and physics. I will continue to use it and continue to give feedback. Take care.

Mike


Welcome to the forum, Mike.

First, thank you very much for your kind words and great comments as regards the Bio-K grip. I hate to sound like broken record, but biokinetics (merging anatomy with physics) is the future of all sports (golf included).

Second, answering your questions I'd put it this way:

- grip change is one of the most annoying one bringing a lot of discomfort for a player; ultimately, it concerns a change in the only point of contact between a player and a club; luckily, it will not last very long since hands are very elastic tool for a man - be patient;
- if I error I'd rather go with smaller diameter but less tapered (as you correctly noticed); e.g. I'd need grips slightly bigger than standard but I use standard ones with additional tape layers to reduce the taper - as described before in the conversation with Mark.

All the best,

Cheers
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braveheart
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PostPosted: Tue 12:42, 31 Aug 2010 Back to top

Darius,
I will try two wraps under the right hand with a standard grip when I do my regripping.
I wanted you to acknowledge that the uncomfortableness I feel with the grip now should ease but mainly I should stick with it. Thanks.

Now to fully incorporate what you espouse, I should use a diagonal stance and adopt a more "flatter" backswing? I naturally use a closed stance and was not sure that it is right thing to do. Diagonal = closed, correct?

I use the term "flatter" as it the only way I can describe it. Less steep or more around the shoulder than above it is what I mean.

Appreciate you input. T
Mike
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Tue 13:43, 31 Aug 2010 Back to top

That's correct, Mike. Two layers more of tape should do the job. It can be done also progressively, i.e. tightening the dispersion of wraps.


The diagonal stance means a bit more than just "closed". The feet line are closed in relation to hips, while the hips are open in relation to shoulders. Lead foot flared out a bit more than the rear one that's more perpendicular to the line linking both pressure points of feet.
Inded, the word "flat" "flatter" is difficult to replace. Yes, the plane should be best low enough not to let lose connection between lead humerus and the main body.

I'd suggest you to look at those two sections:

[link widoczny dla zalogowanych]

[link widoczny dla zalogowanych]

Cheers
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braveheart
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PostPosted: Fri 11:52, 03 Sep 2010 Back to top

Without seeing my swing I know it's difficult to diagnose or surmise what may be happening but I seem to be hitting more hooks and pull hooks with the extreme version of the grip. Can you advise or offer any thoughts? Does not seem to be as bad with irons but woods and driver are going to far left. I think it may be the left hand being stronger. I do like the way the right hand rides along and not come off as much. Thanks.

Mike
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Fri 18:44, 03 Sep 2010 Back to top

braveheart wrote:
Without seeing my swing I know it's difficult to diagnose or surmise what may be happening but I seem to be hitting more hooks and pull hooks with the extreme version of the grip. Can you advise or offer any thoughts? Does not seem to be as bad with irons but woods and driver are going to far left. I think it may be the left hand being stronger. I do like the way the right hand rides along and not come off as much. Thanks.

Mike


Mike, it would be indeed tough to diagnose without the video. Most probably either your pivot stalls to soon or you flip your wrists. One thing more, who knows maybe the most important - remember that with a Bio-K grip there is no parallel correlation between the clubface and the lead wrist (!), i.e. the lead wrist does not face the target unless one wants to have a very shut clubface at impact.

Post a FO, DTL and the rear view vid in the Bio Working Corner subforum when you shoot one. Smile

Cheers
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