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GolfZoner
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Location: Melbourne Australia

PostPosted: Wed 12:05, 08 Dec 2010 Back to top

G'day Dariusz - well I think the penny may have dropped, and I think it is mainly thanks to the help of your young fella, I think I am correct here; your son Adrian. I had a look at at your yotube channel and when I looked at his terrific swing, I noticed that he seemed a lot flatter than me in the backswing and his forearms were a different position to mine in the back swing. I seemed to taking my arms under on the backswing resulting on the incorrect weight transfer to the right side and was picking up the club instead of turning the body a letting the arms fully extend an fold naturally.

On letting the arms go on this plane it has got me wider with the weight now properly on my right side and my left heel raising slightly and then all have to do is the rest LOL.
But I will get there.

Thanks Mate
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GolfZoner
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PostPosted: Wed 13:18, 08 Dec 2010 Back to top

Just to add to my last post Dariusz, I have just watched the Low Plane Magic video and it's all there. But special thanks to Adrian; how's his golf progessing btw, I see that clip was a few years old.
Regards.
J.L.
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Wed 13:19, 08 Dec 2010 Back to top

John, the too inside and too low takeaway is a symptom of the active lead side during the backswing (nota bene it is exactly in line with your narrow takeaway).
The backswing phase should be lead by the rear side up and back at a perpendicular angle to the spine according to a physical rule of guiding the motion by pulling at the direction of the orientation of the motion.
The reason is that a lot depends on what part in the sagittal plane is leading the motion. If the lead side pushes against the rear side inertia, there must be more linear element involved and usually sliding away from target calls for flatter relation between thoracic spine and shoulder blades. OTOH, if the rear side pulls the linear element may be drastically limited.
Simple physics - if you want to move a heavy object precisely on a circle you rather will accomplish this task by pulling it. Pushing will create a lot of inconsistency.
Moreover, this is also why pushing via the lead side causes usually the desire to armsy takeaway that's too low and your subconscious mind must compensate by lifting arms at the end of the backswing so that there is a strong feeling of power.

BTW, it is one of many examples how current golf instruction is helpless because of little knowledge about physics and anatomy. They encourage to push down with lead shoulder or to make a more outside armsy takeaway or similar nonsense. Sad

Cheers
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Wed 13:23, 08 Dec 2010 Back to top

GolfZoner wrote:
Just to add to my last post Dariusz, I have just watched the Low Plane Magic video and it's all there. But special thanks to Adrian; how's his golf progessing btw, I see that clip was a few years old.
Regards.
J.L.


Yep, thre LPM vid addresses the issue quite well, I guess.

Adrian is 14 years old now, despite problems with recent rapid growth (he's already taller then me by several centimeters) still winning some important tournaments and still the best in Poland in his age category. I will put his actual swing motion on YT next season. Thank you very much for nice words about his swing on his behalf. Smile

Cheers
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GolfZoner
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PostPosted: Wed 13:33, 08 Dec 2010 Back to top

Absolute pleasure Dariusz, we have to get you and Adrian over here to Melbourne. I am situated in the heart of the sandbelt two kilometers from Royal Melbourne and clustered around some of the best golf courses in the world. There is plenty of room here in my home Sandringham and you and Adrian and or or family are more than welcome to stay with my family Sean my son and my wife Julie. I play regularly with a Polish mate who was a champion Aussie Rules footballer.
I look forward to seeing Adrian's swing on video - give him my thanks and invitation.
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Wed 15:04, 08 Dec 2010 Back to top

GolfZoner wrote:
Absolute pleasure Dariusz, we have to get you and Adrian over here to Melbourne. I am situated in the heart of the sandbelt two kilometers from Royal Melbourne and clustered around some of the best golf courses in the world. There is plenty of room here in my home Sandringham and you and Adrian and or or family are more than welcome to stay with my family Sean my son and my wife Julie. I play regularly with a Polish mate who was a champion Aussie Rules footballer.
I look forward to seeing Adrian's swing on video - give him my thanks and invitation.


Thank you very much, John. It is very kind of you to write such a warm post. Although it is difficult for us to plan anything due to my wife's chronic health problems, perhaps such a beautiful day comes when we together are able to go to such beautiful place as Australia is.
If only you want to go to our country you can count on myself in everything I can be of help with as well Cool

Cheers
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cboudreau
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PostPosted: Wed 16:11, 10 Aug 2011 Back to top

Hi Dariutz,

Would it be possible to tell me if you have the impression that the energy is distributed vertically towards the target or horizontally around the CoG. I always try to feel that the energy stored in my back perform a pendulum movement from back towards the target.

Secondly, I hit the ball way way left of the Target. I always had problem to find a way to find a resistance point on my left hip where I can then just let a smooth rotation occur around my left hip. This has many bad effects notably to send my trunk and head left of the target.

There must be something I am doing wrong, when do I have to push the pelvis up?

Is it possible that the shoulders should not turn at all but just tilt instead as the arms raised?
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Wed 19:38, 10 Aug 2011 Back to top

Carl,

Although I never try to concentrate on feelings (since they are often misleading) I'd like to answer that feeling the energy goes from the core the most distal fragments of the system, i.e. from the spine through shoulders, arms, hands to the clubhead finally.

Way left means drawing the ball too much or pulling (or pulldrawing) it too much ? I guess the latter judging on your description of what happens with your trunk and head during the motion. It would be a classic example of a spinout or, better said, only rotation phase in the motion. The answer would be very simple - you probably lack the proper linear part of the transition that preceeds the pure rotation phase.
The most serious negative effect is usually creating not enough of the so-called secondary axis tilt, i.e. your spine tilts more at impact (with your rear shoulder down) than at address. It's easy to imagine - when the CoG of your pelvis goes targetwise (properly for a biped) the spine must tilt more per se.
I do not think that you need to push the pelvis up (or do any conscious moves like this) to ensure the proper motion described above. You just need IMO to toy with diagonal stance + rear side joints presets and set up the way it automates the linear motion for you. Lack of it is most probably a culprit of your problems.

It would be good to see your swing, especially from the rear.

Cheers
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cboudreau
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PostPosted: Thu 3:55, 11 Aug 2011 Back to top

Once the linear transition has occurred, is it the left knee that first turn towards the target then a straightening or is it a straightening of the left that forces the change in direction. Mr Hogan said that his legs were quiet which led me to the conclusion that only the pelvis creates the chain of events (linear transition + left leg straightening which force the hip turn, etc). So, for me the idea is to place the pelvis inside the right hip and then in the left hip by sending the right knee behind the lead knee while I squeeze my butts.

When you stated "from the spine through shoulders, arms, hands to the clubhead finally" do I have to assume that I need to turn counterclockwise the hips while the shoulder turn clockwise. Where exactly within the spine the torque should be feel: is it close to the hips or closer to the spatula?

When I saw the video where Mr. Hogan shows his swing in slow mo, I could see that at one point the torso stop completely to let the arms accelerate. I never feel that fast body deceleration in my left side except at the end of the linear pelvis transition. Is it normal?

Thanks.
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Thu 8:55, 11 Aug 2011 Back to top

ad.1 If we assume that pelvis is responsible for the chain of events we must take into account that it is a conscious action (which is an antithesis of gaining automatism); IMO, Hogan described what he felt it was happening, thus, his concentration on hips. If you see the old master vid on the beach (Coleman video) where Hogan demonstrates a swing in a deliberate slo-mo, he uses no linear motion at all !!! It is the best proof that this aspect was totally automatic and natural for him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUbPn9l96YM

In a dynamic (not posed) rear action, the linear shift must happen because we're bipeds. The easiest way to obtain it automatically I know is to built the firm rear side thanks to a proper (diagonal) stance and rear leg joints' presets. The rear side sagittal plane "wall" ensures a lot of a golfer needs, IMO.

ad.2. Yes. The sequentiality of the motion requires that the lower (closer to the ground) a body part is the sooner it changes the orientation; it is the most visible in case of hips vs. shoulders because the hard structure connection is only through the spine and the waist area is free of bones - read: 'projected' to make big turns. Therefore, the biggest torques are certainly located in the waist area.

ad.3. This is the essence of kinetic sequencing. However, there is a little biomechanical trick to it, i.e. the torso should not literally stop rapidly because it will lead to throwing both arms ion front of the body and a crossover release. The trick is that the torso is still turning in 3-D but it seems it stops in 2-D forcing the arms to absorbe energy and pass it fluidly further Smile
Read this article and you'll know everything:

[link widoczny dla zalogowanych]

Cheers
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cboudreau
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PostPosted: Thu 13:19, 11 Aug 2011 Back to top

Very good observation. The only caveat is that Mr Hogan squeeze his butts just before the end of the linear transition and direction change.

If I understood correctly, the straightening of the left leg makes the hip turn happen. Do you push on the ground to make this happen "raising the left side"

On the early elbow plane issue, it looks like at the end of linear transition, Mr. Hogan has a slight move downward with its right thumb to flatten his left wrist and change the orientation of the plane "the club head is more open" by implying an early elbow plane, is he throwing the club at that moment?

Thank you Dariusz for being such a good observer.


Last edited by cboudreau on Thu 13:44, 11 Aug 2011; edited 1 time in total
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cboudreau
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PostPosted: Thu 13:37, 11 Aug 2011 Back to top

So when the linear transition is done, the horizontal component of the lead shoulder should be done too, at that moment is there a fast tilt of the shoulders that occur?
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Thu 16:30, 11 Aug 2011 Back to top

Thank you Carl, and viceversa. Could you just illustrate more in detail your discovery concerning Mr.Hogan's right thumb move ? You will have everyone's attention here, I think.


Now, biophysics tells us that the same moment the linear motion ends, the rotation phase must start unintentionally because inertia still exists and the motion could not just stop, it must continue. That's the trick - to automate the necessary linear shift that will consequently automate the rotation.
As you correctly mentioned, the straightening lead knee joint creates perfect opportunity for rotation in the pelvis area. That is why, e.g. if the lead leg straightens too soon the spinout occurs more easily.

The shoulder area, on the other hand, acts a bit differently; the pelvis area linear movement before transition creates the so-called secondary axis tilt and makes it impossible for the lead shoulder to go linearily targetwise - instead, it practically returns to the address position in sagittal plane but with a bigger tilt angle (it means that the linear motion is somehow offset by an additional tilt amount) - look at the sequence carefully:

[link widoczny dla zalogowanych]

Cheers
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cboudreau
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PostPosted: Thu 16:59, 11 Aug 2011 Back to top

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=P3bIHagVU9o

Mr. Hogan said he solved is hooking problem with a cupped wrist on top but I challenge that he also found a way to enable with this action a hand pivot at the directional change after the linear transition that bring not only an early elbow plane but a bow left wrist at impact. The only way I was able to create that pivot motion was to follow your biokenetic golf swing and to squeeze my butts (which push my pelvis up) right before the end of the linear transition which led to a left leg straightening and a hip turn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWLLPKiSMRk&feature=related at around 1 min 25 sec there is a simple move that explain the hand pivot motion that creates a left bow wrist at impact. It is a gentle right push downward that occurs automatically from a cupped wrist when squeezing the butts at directional change. I hope it helps.
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Thu 17:16, 11 Aug 2011 Back to top

Nice to hear it, Carl. Not being modest now, but a correct Hoganesque pelvis area action can be ensured via the BGST. Despite me being unflexible, old and fat I am in a position to duplicate the main principles of it rather easily. Not saying that to show how great I am but to encourage everyone to try it.

Around 1:25 in the famous Mexico vid ? You mean Mr.Hogan's rear wrist/hand move when he explains something to the audience ? Never looked into it deeper - speaking about who's really a good observer Smile

Cheers
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