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 Biokinetic Grip - So Important View next topic
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cboudreau
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PostPosted: Mon 14:28, 20 Jun 2011 Back to top

I did not position my right hand in accordance with your criteria, it might take a while before I get use to it, I will keep you posted. Thank you.
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Mike O
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PostPosted: Wed 4:45, 17 Aug 2011 Back to top

I remember back in the 90's I had a discussion with Martin Hall on the phone - trying to explain that Jack Nicklaus's grip was not palms facing and clearly described how to determine that - however he "refused" to see it and was "stuck" on the palms facing concept. I like that observation that you've described in your grip - regarding the hand positions.
Thanks Dariusz
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Wed 15:18, 17 Aug 2011 Back to top

Welcome to our small Forum, Mike. It's a honor to have such a good swing theorist here.

Apropos Martin Hall - I remember a great YT vid when he explained how both wrists should act with a little help of two specially constructed devices with technical hinges. His only problem was lack of anatomical knowledge (which is, unfortuantely, rather common in golf instruction) - otherwise, he would have been able to distinguish wrist flexion and deviation and certainly able to agree to you during your conversation.

Cheers
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jfb
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PostPosted: Fri 3:37, 16 Sep 2011 Back to top

Hi Dariusz
So glad I've come across your website. I would make practice swings and see my left hand naturally go into the biokinetical position at impact and have tried for months to change it because of instruction from pro's. Very happy that my body knows what it wants to do and I am just going to let it from now on using this grip. It feels weird but great at the same time.
Got a doubles knockout final tomorrow and will use the grip all day.
Will let you know how I go.
Regards
John
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Fri 8:29, 16 Sep 2011 Back to top

jfb wrote:
Hi Dariusz
So glad I've come across your website. I would make practice swings and see my left hand naturally go into the biokinetical position at impact and have tried for months to change it because of instruction from pro's. Very happy that my body knows what it wants to do and I am just going to let it from now on using this grip. It feels weird but great at the same time.
Got a doubles knockout final tomorrow and will use the grip all day.
Will let you know how I go.
Regards
John


Welcome John ! I am glad that you found the way to our small community. Your post is the best proof that your subconscious mind is the smartest one and if one goes against it nothing good will happen. Unfortunately, current golf instruction often recommends going against it Sad

Cheers
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jfb
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PostPosted: Mon 0:36, 19 Sep 2011 Back to top

Hi Dariusz
Hit a few good shots on Saturday. Unfortunately we lost. Will take some practice to get used to the new grip I think. When I let my subconsciuos hit the shot, it was beautiful but too long. All the other times I was rolling my forearms like I've been instructed and hooking the shot badly. Any tips on how to get my mind in sync?
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Mon 9:06, 19 Sep 2011 Back to top

John,
Intentional rolling the forearms (crossover release in Henry Cotton's classification) is the less timing proof one, hence not recommended. Practically, only pivot stallers are somehow forced to use it.
The Bio-K grip sort of makes the release automatic and the forearms crossing (that must happen sooner or later because biophysics demands it) happens much later than in impact zone and assure the clubface staying square to the arc of the clubhead. The lead wrist goes into an ulnar eviation position while the rear one palmar flexes; now, since the RoM for wrist flexion is more than double bigger than deviation the natural limitation is being found in the lead wrist.
IMO, you should trust your subconscious mind and not doing any intentional moves. See if your pivot is strong enough to help to close the clubface without intentional crossover. If yes, you will not be happier, believe me.

Cheers
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dipstar75
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PostPosted: Sun 23:44, 24 Mar 2013 Back to top

First of all, hello! this is my first post and i am looking forward to many discussions and what i can learn during them.
I must say now Dariusz that what brings me here is your work on the OTT moves in the golf swings of the masters which you have correctly identified and described. I enjoy and appreciate attention to detail. Well done sir!.

I consider good grip to be vital in most areas of life from picking up my children to feeling ready to lift some kind of significant weight like a washing machine. I believe it is no real surprise to most thinking golfers that the way we hold the club is of vital importance to the outcomes of a golf swing.

Recently i had a new way of understanding strong neutral and weak gripping described to me which i found very interesting and theoretically sound.
It goes like this: take a bunch of people and ask them to stand up straight, shoulders back and arms relaxed. If we walked along the line of those people and looked at how many knuckles are visible from a face to face position then we will see a variation in how many knuckles are indeed visible.
Some show only one knuckle, some 4 and some 3 but most are two to two and a half.
So that anatomical difference is in theory why a two and a half knuckle neutral grip would in effect be strong for some and weak for others in regards to their own anatomy. Your thoughts please!
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Mon 13:17, 25 Mar 2013 Back to top

Hello Dipstar and welcome to the forum.

Thank you very much for your kind words.

As regards your grip experiment -- this is exactly what lead me to the concept of biokinetical grip. A very well thought out issue you brought here.
Watching my own hand angle positioning as well as reading a bit about it in medical sources I concluded that the majority of humans, while having arms relaxed ands being in a golf address like posture, have angled position of hands which is an equivalent of strongish lead and weakish rear hand grip. Nowhere near parallel prayer position.
Less angled position that some humans perform (due to genetics or specific issues with ligaments) brings probability of benefitting with more neutral grip -- provided we accept the thesis that positioning both forearms should be as natural as possible without forced pronation or supination at address.

Cheers
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Golfingmaster1
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PostPosted: Mon 23:26, 13 Oct 2014 Back to top

Most people are not strong enough to use this grip and even if you are don't you people understand how much hogan was releasing? Most people cannot release hard enough with a weaker grip. It will also cause living rigor mortis the moment you begin using it because the pressure points are not in the proper places in your hands. Ben hogan was an anomaly and what worked for him won't work for most. A pure Vardon grip is the only thing that will be 100% pure and last forever without injury. The transition is much different than you think if you watch moe norman or almost any good old time pro or superior ball striker and hogan have the rare Passover move more pronounced in Byron Nelson or Rory or me it's all release that's the secret. Check out the pictures in the gallery
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Wed 20:57, 15 Oct 2014 Back to top

Golfingmaster1 wrote:
Most people are not strong enough to use this grip [...]


I do not think strength is an issue. Proper technique of the whole swing is.


Quote:
[...]and even if you are don't you people understand how much hogan was releasing? Most people cannot release hard enough with a weaker grip.


Again, I do not see any reason why one cannot release hard with a weak grip. Au contre, the weaker the grip is the bigger is the enhancement from one's subconscious mind to release hard.
Last but not least, only the rear hand grip is weakish.



Quote:
It will also cause living rigor mortis the moment you begin using it because the pressure points are not in the proper places in your hands.


What pressure points ? E.g. the weaker the rear hand is on the grip the more effectively the trigger finger pressure is being exerted. It's a physical fact.



BTW, welcomne to the forum.
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Golfingmaster1
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PostPosted: Sat 13:24, 18 Oct 2014 Back to top

What has happened is that we have seen our modern day pros like tiger and Rory striving to achieve the positions that the (illustration) or the picture of hogan is in on the front of his book five lessons. The problem is with the technology that has developed players can match swing angles/ sequence perfectly. The issue is, the artist that drew the picture on the front of the book knew that angled lines sell better that straight lines so he drew the picture and made it look like hogan look like his head was 10 more degrees behind the ball than it actually was. Therefore you get Rory mcilroy. If you look at the RSSSSA the scale for grading the most high level golfers, you will see that like rory mcilroy, ben hogan scores sufficiently lower that your top level pros of all time. The reason for this? If you were going to launch a rocket in to space and everything started from the ground up the firing sequence would be a success. If the sequence fired out of order then the rocket would implode and then explode. If you watch hogan he begins his downswing with a literal bump of the left hip, therefore opening his club at impact. Why you say? Because hogan was a major hooker of the ball. So your answers lie within. Most of hogans secrets won't work I unless you are a major hooker first. And the picture of impact everyone has been trying to imitate is a fake illustration and way off of what hogan really looked like at impact.
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Golfingmaster1
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PostPosted: Sat 13:29, 18 Oct 2014 Back to top

Quote:
If you don't have your entire left hand on the club you are reducing power and increasing potential injury. So if you have the interlaced weak hogan grip and you're not someone who can tear apart a phone boom with your bare hands. And hit a 90 yard hook. Loose the inferior grip


Hogan's LH grip was not as weak as people think. It looked weak because of his high hands at address. Try it in front of the mirror. The lead hand is entirely on the grip with butt of the grip under the pad (just as Hogan instructs in 5L).
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Golfingmaster1
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PostPosted: Sat 13:30, 18 Oct 2014 Back to top

*phone book
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Golfingmaster1
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PostPosted: Sat 14:46, 18 Oct 2014 Back to top

You also DO NOT want to try to grip the club so hard that you are not allowing centrifugal force to straighten out your arms and club shaft at impact. While this will improve your ball striking. Historically every great golfer who has done this has seen there career ended by the yips. Ben hogan, sam sneed, lee travino are just a few. Sergio garcia is next
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