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GolfZoner
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PostPosted: Wed 9:00, 25 May 2011 Back to top

G'Day Dariuscz, been a while and I hope you and all are well.

Getting a little cold down here now, however still loving the challenge of Golf.

Been working away and recently opened up a copy of "The Ben Hogan Collection" a dvd pack that I sell on my web site. It is amazing the old adage " When the student is ready the Master will appear". I have had this Dvd pack sitting on my shelves for years and opened it only last week.

Amongst the volume of gold on this wonderful DVD - Jim McClean focuses on Hogan's Grip and how he moved the left thumb to down the centre of the shaft and the right hand vee pointing to the right shoulder.

I know you have spent a lot of time on this important aspect Dariucsz, however it really didn't sink in with me because it felt so strange.

So I persisted with amazing results.

On this wonderful DVD many of Hogan’s friends and so called confidants discuss the “ Hogan Secret” they all say it is one thing or the other.

As it turned out I spent a bit of time with my friend a Golf Machine Master and who is just up the road from my house at the driving Range, I gave him a copy of the DVD a few days earlier and he in turn gave me a magazine clipping from Life magazine titled “ This is My Secret’ published by the great man himself; and guess what the secret is : “The Biokintical Grip”

Dariucsz, if you don’t have a copy of the Ben Hogan Collection, please send me your address and I will send you one.

If you wish to google the article: Life Magazine 1958 “This is my Secret” by Ben Hogan.

Anyway thanks for your great work and hope to speak soon.
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Wed 12:40, 25 May 2011 Back to top

Hello John,

It is a pleasure to read such posts. The BH Collection is the best DVD series I have ever seen and some footages as well comments from Ken Venturi and Bob Toski are marvellous. The interactive disc with 4 different swings is worth the price alone. Thank you very much for your proposal though. Smile

I agree to you about the grip. Although, as someone wise said, grip is the only one connection between the motor (body) and the tool (club), I can see how little time and verses are being diedicated to this aspect on golf pages in the net. Ben Hogan alone dedicated always a lot of attention to the grip. Moreover, the wrist joints are one of the most complicated joints and their RoM is very diversified. Therefore, one cannot know much about the ideal grip without knowing basic anatomy, at least. We all now that Hogan, as the fitness instructor, had this knowledge. His post-secret grip (overlapping with rear hand on the weakish side and lead hand on strongish one) is just a masterpiece and, IMO, the biokinetically optimal grip. It is a pity that today's golf instruction usually understands this aspect in a very shallow way.

Cheers

P.S. Google Luther Blacklock and his "Lost Fundamentals of Hogan". There is a great chapter dedicated to grip and perfect explanation why overlapping is superior over interlocking.
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GolfZoner
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PostPosted: Thu 8:42, 09 Jun 2011 Back to top

G'Day Darius, hope you are enjoying the fine weather, getting fairly chilly down here.
I have been playing around with my grip as you are aware, tweaking here and there because I wan't sure of the definitive and final grip i will be adopting.
As a result I printed off your blog on the BG and studied it very closely. I am not sure if I a interpreting this correctly but I feel your suggestion of a strong left hand is one area I disagree with your work. When I do this and have a weak right hand I get a weak slice on the ball and feels very uncomfortable.

What seem to work for me is what Hogan suggested in his Life article that the left hand shows only one knuckle and the thumb down the shaft.
I welcome your feedback thanks Mate.
Regards
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Thu 10:39, 09 Jun 2011 Back to top

Hello John,

Merging strongish lead and weakish rear hand grip is optimal from biomechanical point of view in theory without any discussion. There are two key areas that often are misunderstood though and, it is a great moment to discuss them on the occasion of your post here:
1. strongish lead hand does not mean that it is strong per se; it means that it is stronger than e.g. parallel V's theory says; it means that the position of the lead hand is stronger than the rear hand looks on the grip; the idea is to merge the RoM of the lead hand deviation with the rear hand flexion and it is difficult to express it otherwise in simple language than just to say "strong left + weak right";
2. the position of the handle influences at lots of things high hands at setup weakens the grip visually when comparing to the low hands; also with a mid-body handle position it is not possible to have a very strong LH grip; Hogan had both mid-body hands and high hands, thus, his LH grip was really the strongest these two conditions allowed while, in fact, it was not strong at all.

Hope this makes sense.

Cheers

P.S. Yes, we have at last a good weather; too bad I cannot play due to the contusion now but I am going to start my season fully by the end of the month with the Polish Championships on a very beautiful (and difficult) course in Postolowo. Smile
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GolfZoner
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PostPosted: Thu 10:57, 09 Jun 2011 Back to top

Thanks for the feedback Dariucz, and I get most of what you have to say. Having such a strong and so called conventional grip makes this change very radical to me.
What I have also been working on with this new grip is the left thumb now feels under the shaft at the top of the back swing and the hands feel to be working in unison. Another area I have been foccusing on is keeping the pressure of the crease in the right hand on the left thumb and also maintaining pressure of the last three fingers of the left hand, mainly because I now realise I may have been regripping or not having moulded grip with the both hands.
One thing that really stood out to me on Hogans swing at the top of the back swing was how beautifully both hands worked with a great wrist cock. I am sure this position helped him in the early elbow plane - fascinating stuff.
Love your work Mate and the Game.

Thanks Dariuscz.
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GolfZoner
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PostPosted: Thu 11:06, 09 Jun 2011 Back to top

Sorry for the typo - this should have read Having HAD such a strong and so called conventional grip makes this change very radical to me.
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Thu 12:08, 09 Jun 2011 Back to top

Exactly, John ! Hogan had best looking top position followed by enormous lag shaft angle on the EEP thanks with a big portion to his grip. The lead thumb under the grip is crucial for controlling the shaft, what you just confirmed in your great post above. Moreover, if you look closely at Hogan's grip at the top (e.g. famous '55 Life magazine cover) you will see that it is no longer short thumb as he used to have at setup ! He let his thumb lengthen during the backswing - gained power not losing control - pure genius. No regripping, but letting physics act freely and unintentionally. In his motion there was nothing against physics and nothing against anatomy - that's why he was the best by far.

Cheers
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GolfZoner
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PostPosted: Sat 12:15, 11 Jun 2011 Back to top

Thanks for your explanation Dariucz. This facinates me; the lengthening of the thumb,can you please elaborate on that and how Hogan achieved this.

One more point if you would be kind enough to explain. I played today with my regular playing partner and friend who is a very good golfer. He has just changed his hands and arm position at address, originally fairly low (similar to mine) due to a slight cocking ( upward )of the wrists and removed that situation to have the hands hanging straight down. He achieved great results and hit the ball beautifully. I tried this a little later in my round and started to pull the ball left.

What are your thoughts on the arms and hands at address, should they hang straight down with the thumbs pointing down.

Thanks again Mate
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Sat 15:51, 11 Jun 2011 Back to top

It is one of the little Hogan's secrets, I am more than sure about it. As we know, the idea is to merge LH deviation (cocking) with RH flexion (hinging). Since the RoM of hinging is, at least, double comparing to deviation (as 60* to 30*) we obtain excellent things, namely:
a. maximum LH cocking enriched with lead wrist pronation and cupping as a result, especially in a low plane scenario (since 60* > 30*);
b. the RH palm lifeline cannot press the thumb approaching top and there must be a gap (since 60* > 30*); thus, the LH thumb is not being pressed any more;
c. there are no physical obstacles (except from the friction between it and the grip itself) for the LH thumb to move freely; the only one natural move is to extend/elongate while gliding on the grip;
d. long thumb during the downswing is a bliss for shaft lag angle and, therefore, powering the stroke.
I do not remember correctly, but I read somewhere that Peter Thomson (another old pro with a great biokinetically valid swing) observed Hogan's hands for quite a oong time and focused on the LH thumb "moving on the grip". Yes, John, it is a fascinating subject.

As per high vs. low hands - it is a microscale issue and, IMHO, everyone should experiment with both and find one's own best method. Generally, low hands promotes the ball going right while high hands promotes the ball going left (for RH golfer) because of the relation between hands and the clubface. As we know, thanks to the new ball flight laws - the majority depends on how the clubface acts during impact.

Cheers
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cboudreau
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PostPosted: Sat 21:40, 18 Jun 2011 Back to top

Where can I find information on the exact way to hold the club like M. Hogan, I did not know that my left thumb had to be free to move on the shaft. Any conscious move to move my thumb would not allow me to see the ball (I can't do 2 things with my mind intentionally, i just can't).

Carl
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Sun 11:56, 19 Jun 2011 Back to top

Carl, welcome to our small forum.

Detailed descriptions and visualizations of the biokinetical grip are here:

[link widoczny dla zalogowanych]

[link widoczny dla zalogowanych]

The "moving lead hand thumb" is just a unintentional phenomenon that happens because this is the only one way to maximize radial deviation of the LH wrist. Nothing is conscious there.

Cheers
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cboudreau
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PostPosted: Sun 14:53, 19 Jun 2011 Back to top

I place my lead hand index on top of my pinky and ring fingers or else, my club face just close fraction of seconds before I start the backswing because of my diagonal stance. My brain does it but I don't perceive it. I do not waggle, I set up my arms by turning them clockwise at the elbow joints while gripping the club, I feel it set-up my tendons together and make sure that my lead left wrist never break before impact. I am wondering if all the details I have put in to set up always consistently has killed my tempo. Thank you for helping us.
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cboudreau
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PostPosted: Sun 15:07, 19 Jun 2011 Back to top

Either today or tomorrow, I will try to preset my right forearm like you have described in part 2. So, this is the only conscious thing in the swing "keep the elbow's setting until impact"?
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Sun 17:48, 19 Jun 2011 Back to top

cboudreau wrote:
I place my lead hand index on top of my pinky and ring fingers or else, my club face just close fraction of seconds before I start the backswing because of my diagonal stance. My brain does it but I don't perceive it. I do not waggle, I set up my arms by turning them clockwise at the elbow joints while gripping the club, I feel it set-up my tendons together and make sure that my lead left wrist never break before impact. I am wondering if all the details I have put in to set up always consistently has killed my tempo. Thank you for helping us.


Do not worry about the tempo. When your setup procedure makes your overall motion automatic, the tempo will "come back" by itself. Look at Hogan and his fast swing. Guys as Snead told him not only once to slow down the motion so that the hooks were not an issue. As we all know, Hogan made some crucial changes after 1946 in grip and setup (as I like to say he made his swing setup-dependent) but never slowed down a fraction. The results were as we all know as well - the best swing of all times.

Cheers
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dariusz
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PostPosted: Sun 17:54, 19 Jun 2011 Back to top

cboudreau wrote:
Either today or tomorrow, I will try to preset my right forearm like you have described in part 2. So, this is the only conscious thing in the swing "keep the elbow's setting until impact"?


Yes. Hogan in his book told us all to keep elbows together as close as possible. As we can see - it never happens in reality because tension would have killed everything. The only one side of the body that must be preset is the rear one in the sagital plane because it must be prepared to create a sequentially built wall (from the ground up) that ensures correct order of CoG shifts during the transition. Transition is so important part because it is a complete 180* change of orientation of the motion with all consequences of such rapid physical phenomenon. If it is not set down via our physical and anatomical knowledge, it will become a matter of timing. That is why golf promotes only people with great timing feel and coordination while condemn amateurs without such a gift to golfers' hell (countless drills, range hours, ineffective instruction, etc.).


Cheers
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